We need change in America

It's not about you, unc, it's about your small-minded point of view. I always thought you were a cool guy.

For the record, I never voted for Clinton--he is hardly a hero of mine. McCain is a good man, for whom I have much respect, but I won't vote for him because he is wrong on most of the issues that are important to me.

There were times when I was in the Marine Corps (drafted) that I would have happily traded a blind eye if it meant not having to endure the crap I went through.

You make some valid points. I'm Democrat by default I as an Independent wanted a say in the prelims but I can't and don't agree with most of the Dem stuff but you'd be dang sure that I wouldn't vote for a Republican. (Let's discuss the racist war? Let's discuss racist and bigoted middle america non-sense? Let's discuss the direct murder of now millions by the Reagan administration and still no apology for not publicly mentioning the word AIDS for 7.5 years?)

Anyway.

I'll start with your headline and say alot not as serious as I type but on other issues I'm not sure I can hold my tongue.

Bubba and the Hill and Obama hitting black churches ~ hopefully inner city as well seeing the crumbling of the inner city. Republicans don't do that. When the Convention was here did they ever go farther than Spring Garden Street ~ nope ~ didn't think so wasn't prudent. They did have a field trip for Jersey tomatoes and Pa Dutch Country. Can't get away from the white too long while being served by those that live in these neighborhoods.

I totally agree with you on this one I'm tired of the Hollywood spin machine for the Dems. Though you've gotta admit (like usual) SNL's take on the Hil and Obama was dead on hilarious. Who really cares but I think that's for those that really do the media. I'll hit the 11pm news and maybe read the Times on Sunday but rarely if ever have all that indepth nonsense no wonder we have the problems in this country that we do. What's Jessica Simpson gonna convince me to do on election day.

Agendas and convinctions are you nuts? Better than rampant white racism (check Iraq, check Katrina, I mean I'm still laughing how our military can invade a sovereign nation and our Pres can eliminate the Constitution but does his normal side shuffle~stutter~illiterate word~etc on activating the military to rescue our own people and THEN attend the clean up ~ WAIT there's no Bush/Cheney/etc family money involved it's just those black people - could go on), price at the pump, no foreign relations, another end of Presidency recession, hmmm hmmm hmmm

Though for being a lilly livered conservative I love ya Unc.

When did we in this country forget about the separation of church and state. The 2000 and 2004 campaigns were fought and won in the pulpits. The campaign managers were excellent at working their crowd especially the religious conservative circles of this country. I'd go on about issues that are relevant to my life but seeing I have to edit (exactly what I am speaking about and no not a dig nor personal attack but exactly the political debate that was a major issue of the country.) Why must we deal with having any religious context on politics in this country seeing the religious and belief systems are widely flung. We have again gotten concerned what some pastor has stated and debated Obama's religious convictions. What does that have to do with reducing debt, crime, housing, taxes, the insane war for nothing other than racism or oil, etc. Who or what any of the candidates has nothing to do with issues affecting our country.

To answer your question if the Christian evangelical wing gets offended or statements are against their principals and ideals they come out swinging. I've yet to see them come out in defense of other denominations. What do you expect out of these folks like Falwell and Robertson (who for example blamed 9/11 on everything but 20 Muslim gentleman on a self-proclaimed jihad) who proclaim "Jesus" but spew hatred. Defend the Catholic Church when people go after it nor actually have a meeting with other denominations or religions? Never.

I follow this with some spirited affection to see "God's people" (are they Jewish?)it would be interesting to see if that contingent weren't affecting america's decisions on politics. For 8 years, we've had a racist illiterate in office and Kerry just stuck his foot in his mouth but let's look at Reagan and nearly every other modern Rep since FDR used this tactic ~ they motivated the churches, etc ~ though look at how many downturns, wars and how the economy was after they took charge.

Obama's upbringing being compared to Jesus', what else in the statements are not true? I'm just trying to see why these statements are considered so racist?

We [America] do have a history that can't be denied! While not every American has an ancestary tied to slavery [either as a decendant of a slaveowner or decendant of a slave], there was a segment of our soicety who owned slaves and were slaves, and some of us have descended from those populations. When slavery became illegal, racism still flourished. How many readers still tell racist jokes [either segment of the argument]?

I agree in regard to the comments about Hillary, the preacher is correct, - she can't possibly relate to the racism experienced by some Americans. She hasn't been there, some of us have - maybe as darker skinned Americans or perhaps as Milts in a micro type environment. I've experienced the scenario as a white American in some societies overseas - I was forbidden to enter certain establishments because I was an American. Also as a Marine out in a store on a non-pay day Friday, and as a Homeboy on town privilege - store owners used to follow us around because they automatically thought we might be stealing something! I was actually told that on occasion! But I have never felt the real sting of racism as some of our fellow Americans have. Lynchings, cross burnings and other hateful acts were not part of my upbringing. But they were not part of Obama's either! His father was not an American and his mother was caucasian. So it's a wash in that regard for both Hillary and Obama.

As far as drugs, why haven't we [America] taken a harder stance against the importing of drugs? Sorry Nancy but "Just so No!" doesn't cut it! We have a problem and the problem is very prominent in inner cities - but not isolated in any stretch of the imagination - perhaps different types of drugs but still illegal drug trafficking occurs - dealing in both legal and illegal drugs!

I think the comment about the country being controlled by rich white people could be tailored a bit to rich people - regardless of skin color - but the majority of the rich are still white - but rich is rich and money buys power - anybody want to dispute that? And it doesn't matter if they are democrats or republicans - IMO the rich influence the laws, educational opportunities and business opportunities. But we still have a society where rags to riches can and does occur! Majority of the time you need money to make money! Anybody disagree?

As far as Bill riding dirty - anybody want to defend him? Have at it!

Now I will say as of this time - I plan on voting for someone other than Obama, but as I read the post, I wasn't inflamed to the point where I thought the minister's comments were necessarily racist, however at the same time I don't think his message was meant for caucasian Christians.

Does anyone believe the IRS should get involved because of the statements made? How did we feel about Jerry Falwell? Pat Robertson?

Should political statements be completely isolated from religion?

Where is a legality that so dictates regarding the IRS?

Please refer to the below site:

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf

After reading the information posted on this site - I do believe that the Wright has violated the IRS policy - if he publicly supported Obama!

Do I think that if he has ceased in doing so - the church should be penalized by having their tax status changed - no! Actually I don't even agree 100% with the law - but it is the law and it should be obeyed as long as it holds a place on the books!

Make sure you don't use the old adage about church and state should be separated! Be sure you read that one very closely!

First Amendment.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

The establishment clause has generally been interpreted to prohibit 1) the establishment of a national religion by Congress, or 2) the preference of one religion over another or the support of a religious idea with no identifiable secular purpose. The first approach is called the "separationist" or "no aid" interpretation, while the second approach is called the "non-preferentialist" or "accommodationist" interpretation. In separationist interpretation, the clause prohibits Congress from aiding religion in any way even if such aid is made without regard to denomination. The accommodationist interpretation prohibits Congress from preferring one religion over another, but does not prohibit the government's entry into religious domain to make accommodations in order to achieve the purposes of the Free Exercise Clause.

The Free Exercise Clause is the accompanying clause with the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. The Free Exercise Clause reads:

“ Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. ”

[source listed below]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_Church_and_State

As you can read from the above site - there is much implied by three former presidents but again some of the language in their personal statements is exactly that - personal viewpoints. The first amendment was written differently than their personal views so state.

Hopefully we can have some hearty exchange!

http://wizbangblog.com/content/2008/03/13/obamas-preacher-in-his-own-words.php
It was not the first time Wright appeared to endorse Obama, who was baptized at Trinity United, has been an active member of the church for two decades and receives spiritual mentorship from Wright.
The title of Obama's second book, "The Audacity of Hope," was taken from a sermon by Wright.
During a Christmas sermon, Wright tried to compare Obama's upbringing to Jesus at the hands of the Romans.
"Barack knows what it means living in a country and a culture that is controlled by rich white people," Wright said. "Hillary would never know that.
"Hillary ain't never been called a nigger. Hillary has never had a people defined as a non-person."
In his Jan. 13 sermon, Wright said:
"Hillary is married to Bill, and Bill has been good to us. No he ain't! Bill did us, just like he did Monica Lewinsky. He was riding dirty."
CHICAGO - Barack Obama’s controversial pastor and the church he’s served for 36 years may be in hot water over statements he has made from the pulpit in support of the Illinois senator’s run for the White House.
The Rev. Jeremiah Wright Jr. preaches that he follows the righteous path, but when it comes to the federal tax law, his Trinity United Church of Christ may have crossed the line.
Although Wright delivered what was billed as his final sermon last month on his path to retirement, prior to his departure he delivered commentary from the pulpit now being scrutinized in which he praised Obama.
“There is a man here who can take this country in a new direction,” Wright said during his Jan. 13 sermon, according to recordings obtained by FOX News.
It was not the first time Wright appeared to endorse Obama, who was baptized at Trinity United, has been an active member of the church for two decades and receives spiritual mentorship from Wright.
The title of Obama’s second book, “The Audacity of Hope,” was taken from a sermon by Wright.
During a Christmas sermon, Wright tried to compare Obama’s upbringing to Jesus at the hands of the Romans.
“Barack knows what it means living in a country and a culture that is controlled by rich white people,” Wright said. “Hillary would never know that.
“Hillary ain’t never been called a nigger. Hillary has never had a people defined as a non-person.”
In his Jan. 13 sermon, Wright said:

“Hillary is married to Bill, and Bill has been good to us. No he ain’t! Bill did us, just like he did Monica Lewinsky. He was riding dirty.”

FOX News purchased the video recordings of Wright’s sermons from the church.

“It’s pretty clear an indirect endorsement of Barack Obama - that’s not something you’re supposed to do according to the tax code,” said Andrew Walsh, a professor at Trinity College who specializes in religion in politics.

The tax code bans churches from participating in or intervening in a political campaign. Violations can result in the loss of a church’s tax exempt status.

The Obama campaign issued a statement in response to FOX News’ inquiries about Wright’s sermons.

“Senator Obama has said repeatedly that personal attacks such as this have no place in this campaign or our politics, whether they’re offered from a platform at a rally or the pulpit of a church,” said Bill Burton, a campaign spokesman.

“Senator Obama does not think of the pastor of his church in political terms. Like a member of his family, there are things he says with which Senator Obama deeply disagrees.”

Obama defended Wright’s longtime activism for blacks in America last week at a campaign event in Ohio.

“Jeremiah Wright … has said some things that are considered controversial because he’s considered that part of his social gospel,” Obama said.

The Internal Revenue Service wouldn’t comment on whether it is looking into potential tax violations at Trinity United. The church declined to make Wright available for an interview.

Congregant Dwight Hopkins, a professor of Theology at the University of Chicago, said there is no basis for the IRS to go after the church.

“From the church side they will say it’s theology,” said. “If it wasn’t a senator running for president and it wasn’t his church, then I think we could say all kinds of things.”

The IRS has written dozens of letters warning churches against political advocacy from the pulpit. Yet it has revoked a church’s tax-exempt status only twice in the last half-century.

Walsh said it’s not typical for the IRS to enforce the rules.

“There’s a tension here between the desires of the religious leaders to say important things in the public marketplace and the IRS rules, and so most of the time, the IRS does not enforce these rules,” Walsh said.

The public scrutiny of these sermons comes in the wake of last month’s revelation by the head of the United Church of Christ that the IRS is investigation a speech Obama gave at the denomination’s national conference last year in Connecticut.

In a certified letter, Marsha Ramirez, IRS director, EO Examinations, wrote:

“Our concerns are based on articles posted on several Web sites including the church’s which state the United States Presidential Candidate Senator Barack Obama addressed nearly 10,000 church members gathered at the United Church of Christ’s biennial General Synod at the Hartford Civic Center, on June 23, 2007. In addition, 40 Obama volunteers staffed campaign tables outside the center to promote his campaign.”

The church and the Obama campaign have denied that any inappropriate political advocacy occurred during this speech.

Wright’s sermons often address themes of white supremacy and black repression, and critics have called them racially divisive.

Some remarks attributed to Wright that have been posted on the Internet and cited in press accounts include:

“Fact number one: We’ve got more black men in prison than there are in college.

“Fact number two: Racism is how this country was founded and how this country is still run.

“We are deeply involved in the importing of drugs, the exporting of guns and the training of professional killers. … We believe in white supremacy and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God. … We conducted radiation experiments on our own people. … We care nothing about human life if the ends justify the means.

“And … And … And! God! Has got! To be sick! Of this shit!”

Click here to hear an audio clip of the Rev. Jeremiah Wright Jr. WARNING: Contains offensive language.

Once Wright’s remarks were widely publicized last year, Obama backed out of his plans for his pastor to speak at his Feb. 10 presidential announcement.

Obama met Wright after college while working with local churches in Chicago to tackle problems of drug abuse and unemployment in inner-city neighborhoods. Wright preached an Afrocentric theology that interpreted the Bible through shared suffering of African Americans.

For Obama, this experience was a spiritual turning point. He has written that he had been exposed to various faiths during his life but never formally adopted one until after meeting Wright.

“Inside the thousands of churches across the city, I imagined the stories of ordinary black people merging with the stories of David and Goliath, Moses and Pharaoh, the Christians in the lion’s den, Ezekiel’s field of dry bones,” he wrote in his memoir, “Dreams From My Father: A Story of Race and Inheritance.”

“Those stories - of survival, and freedom, and hope - became our story, my story.”

I am Democrat and after the convention speech last year I also fell for the Obama charm, the more and more you dig into his promise of change, it is an empty promise.

What a America does not need right now, is racial war, Obama is no Martin L King, he is nothing more than the piper and he can not lead the country, with adviser such as the racist Pastor White.

I hate to admit this but, I may have to vote for the republicans to stay in office. I will need to see and hear more from Hillary, but it does not seem to me that we are putting our best foot forward as a party.

I do not care if you are white or black, how can you accept the preachings of this man who hates America and hates white people. And Obama has not denied following his teachings.

Add comment to keep the STE the STE.